Let Failing African Governments Collapse: A Radical Solution to Underdevelopment

" Good afternoon and welcome to the Cato Institute my name is Marion 2 PM the polls -- analysts here -- Kato's center for globally -- Tim prosperity think -- for coming before proceeding with today's forum I saw what I would give you an update for those of you who had not seen the news that's the Zimbabwean opposition movement for democratic change is now officially constituting a majority in the Zimbabwean parliament which is the first time in 28 years that the ruling Zanu P have lost power and of course although doubts remained about the presidential contest. And the presidency signing credibly important and powerful. Opposition in Zimbabwe a I have no doubts that this latest development is a yet very post -- that on the -- to freedom in that country. My friend and colleague and demand from home idea learned a great deal of George -- today is not here he's on his way and he will be with us shortly but some. In his work George likes to distinguish between that modern and informal sectors of the African economy. He believes that the modern sector -- pretty much a lost it is score up to it is inefficient if he's failing. Most of the innovation and economic activity in Africa George says. Happens within the informal sectors of the economy. But what if what applies to African economies also applies to African governments. What if underneath the layer alt inefficient -- up and territory governments. That were left behind by the departing colonial powers. There remain the remnants of a pre colonial system of government. That is more in line with. African traditional values. And African traditions. Dust foreign aid and other systems that western governments lavish and Africa. Four and -- and western assistance which is geared toward to working with these failing and corrupt African governments. Does it prevent the emergence. Of government structures that would be more in line with the needs of the African people. These other sorts of questions that'll be addressed by our distinguished panel today. -- is a senior associate with the center for strategic and international studies in Washington. It's served. As consultant to the United States National Security Council the White House chief of stuff. The US Department of Defense the US Department of State and several European government. He has -- at Johns Hopkins University. And has been an invite to lecture at universities -- such centrist and war colleges throughout the world. His books including strategy the logical war and peace the grand strategy of the Roman empire. And Turbo capitalism are published in the United States sending Great Britain. And have also appeared in 21 different languages. He has recently completed the strategy of the buys -- time empire. Ed look Ed -- look what. I had studied at the London school of economics Johns Hopkins university and the university -- but he reads. Rights very politically. And speaks I believe as I've just witnessed several languages. And is with that's that I would like to welcome him to the Cato Institute."

" My real qualification is that sir. I have African relatives there's an African site to my family now has been for many decades and and this alone has brought me compact -- different parts of Africa over the years and terror. I have a particularly in principle and that which is beyond that -- an analyst. -- there are some there are some difficulties in dealing with the issue of Sub-Saharan Africa which is our subject. First come a lot of people have never been there and those and they know little the ones have been there are no less because when they get here. They get shocked by whatever they encounter -- that I don't often advise people who have. Group planning to go from Chicago to god knows what does that as they wanted to stop over in London for a week -- so. 22 so you get used to something other then you just suburbs of Chicago there're issues of travel narrows the mind and the laws of the misinformation about Africa is from people who will be in they'll watts. Will be into one place. Some people react to the shock -- in the four winds have been for example. For many years the Japanese corporations just never steps foot they wouldn't do anything with Sub-Saharan Africa but it didn't compute in Japanese terms. And they couldn't understand this at his estate the way. They did less harm that way now there are issues about at the diversity is -- Sub-Saharan Africa is."

" I enormous of course as we on now but there are some issues of model economy. Which are some fundamental dimensions the seem to be pervasive and you encountered that when you. Are hanging around two airports and so on and you talk to white people who live in Africa. Who do all kinds of different things and the thing is. You said to them why do live in this goddamn awful place and just leaving himself and he says well you Don thermostat in fact lots of people lived there. Who find it difficult to live anywhere else who have plugged into a typical of moral economy the outside world so some of that. When there was the whole lifetime ago there was -- cruel Warren in Kenya. Which is then followed by the settling down of the the population day including the white settlers in Kenya in the separation of of perfect tranquility amity and so much from much of more recently in the country just mentioned in Rhodesia. There was a whole war faulted with the -- the revisions. Government which was put in order to maintain the principle of white rule in Rhodesia. That work came to an end Andy stab them a deportations massacres exile in some. What happened was that people simply continue living as before Ian Smith who have been who -- led to the the wide government to revision of simply went back to his farm. And I actually visited there once in this farm for some silly reason and doubt he was living in a farmer in the state of complete terror turn quote confront this is obviously these are all things that he wouldn't encounter. In in the Middle East and you encounter many other places the the end and this that rises from some profound dimensions. Of the moral economy of African life manifesting quite different places in fact the only exception to this rule who was of course Belgium Belgian Congo we know cause Belgium is the Congo of Europe. And the ones the Congo used to be the Belgium -- Africa. And in the course of Belgium -- using the Congo superficially trying to do so. There was there a spectacular degree of cruelty and that's why. There was a -- of violence against wise -- on but it is this fact these little episodes of very indicative about. They -- dimension of African life which explains why so many expected its. -- the the around Africa and find it difficult to leave departures from. -- very appealing. That might specific subject has to do with the role of the state today in Africa life today. And arm. The deep in economic terms it can be reduced to the proposition that states that too expensive that too expensive for these for these populations and determine. This is that actually arises from a dimension of history which strangely enough has not really attracted much attention. Until recent decades and I mean global history and global attention and that is. The emergence of the state the emergence of the state. The creation of the -- And this was I'd I'd rather indirect process because first in the in what in the there was there was the emergence."

" The distinction between so science team. And the state and government put together state and government and yet society there the actual. Very discovery of the -- with the you know goes back to Thomas requirements. Who invented this phrase civil society. All he was trying to do was to translate the Greek polish because he was trying to write therapist on the political science and Aristotle and sound. But you have the invention of the concept of something other -- state and government it -- state and government that is us. That was the first step and they took centuries. For another. Very powerful distinction to emerge and that is between. Government and state to state the machine bear which collects taxes and paying structures institutions. And then there are the people who happen to rule that. Nowadays this is a colossal distinction. And is the basis for the functioning of the of the state that is not the predatory -- food and harmful -- indeed it did discovery that you can be appointed minister of Finance Ministry of the tragedy as it's called in many countries. And you don't have the rights to open the box take the gold out but in your pocket and give it your family members. For this to be to emerge you have to have a distinction between government and state it took centuries for this to be achieved. In European terms. It was achieved in different ways in in the non European cultures to different extent and because of that you have. Had the construction of of institution but this is something that that is was he even historians sort of went. Had overlooked and did not studied this whole phenomenon until they say about thirty years ago when first people started sitting down. In writing not to history of France of the history of Portugal. But the history of the state. How states -- states were formed in everybody in Europe and other compatible places looking at China India in the usual prices and so. And this this process. Had three dimensions to it one was a political struggle of course between communes. And through the Lawrence and kings and sound in the creation and institution. And this is old in the realm of formal -- political history. All those bits and pieces can be covered it. But this second. -- aspect of it much harder to. Discover it again something that has been historians have only start to sort of working on it for the last 2025 years. As with the emergence of the underlying mentality. That made this important. The mentality philosophy or ideology is to make important. Why was it that mr. Smith becomes minister of finance and doesn't take that opened the box and takes the money and runs with a it was because -- mister Smith had acquired. Faith and morals superstructure was working in the society which. Was governed by the moral superstructure and for him to do that was he was was something that was it was a moral illegal unethical. Destroyed in these -- self image and all the rest. Not to accomplish -- you first have to subordinate. It's cast aside. Some things which was very powerful and very elemental and that is simply families and families them. They had to families and good to see which emerges as the subtext of the news in the Middle East every other week. And feminism which has -- motion and that's your moral duty. -- moral duty is to support to uphold defend feed to protect your family. That it's interesting that in the 1950s American sociologists studying not Africa but southern Europe came out but band who came up -- this phrase called a moral Fryman -- them. That is to say the judgment come from the United States of America Wisconsin whatever it was goes to look at neon in southern Italy. Where this state has never done anything positive for anybody. What the state only functions as a negative but he goes there and he. In in -- the phrase a moral family is them. To condemn the tendency of people who -- who command bits of the state to get appointed to exalted positions like chief nurse of hospital. To turn that appointment into a source of income for her and her family. So in Wisconsin the state where X -- while serving the state is that morally ethically right. The right thing to do if you go to C palatial with a stake is an addictive and doesn't serve anybody. Farthest -- not to steal for the chief Paris not to steal medical supplies from the hospital to feed a family. Means actually to allowing some -- in Kuwait in cooked for all of the health bureaucracy that they can go -- now it's. It's not a moral feminism which is the big thing but it's actually families him and he took centuries. For these structures and superstructure of Europe in perfectly imperfectly. To a subordinate feminism to the cult's to their religion to the worship of the state. And then of course the distinction between state and government. Emerging from it says this is a very complex process instead of any of these things will happen is that one sunny today. Well less sunny day in 96 BC 5960616263 when there was there was tonight's ceremony. The flags were raised another flight was and the colonial state said bye bye and left. The colonial state left. The colonial state to remain because what happened was that the colonial governors. Carter embargo their frigates corvettes to airplanes and left behind the state structure. They left behind the state's structure without. Any of the moral and ethical political social superstructure of the made that state function. And therefore what you have from the beginning was. A a a process of almost sort of like sort of like -- added it to -- dislocation what happens is when you have an earthquake is slow moving. Earthquake that this place instructions who had. These states superstructure. And below it you had society and culture of functioning according to -- DS has stroke mechanism of all of humanity. Of all of humanity. That's why when you're running two people in Lagos and you say how bill can you live here. And he says mug anonymously eventually but they got used to living in Lagos -- back to Sweden anymore because people in Sweden a so called any human. Robot tape and I don't read their lives so here than a lot of these -- This is called feminism feminism. -- moral structure that moral mechanism which is kept humanity going in the whole of human history except for very recent times in that in recent rise. As a result of but the good things that what happens of course is that feminism Dan colonial laws that -- and that is how it comes about that policemen. Don't police instead their power they used the power of the uniform and their weapon and all. That's their presence to extort money from whoever they can't remember once I was in gone -- visiting but in my African relatives. And the policeman tried to get. That the -- to pay a fine and we were stuck in the traffic jam. And blood with a fine for a speeding. And that was because that was the only thing he knew about was a speeding -- while you're sitting stuck in traffic what that policeman was doing is in. Was doing something that viewed from Wisconsin -- Sweden is -- Sarid. Be viewed in African Terence why did humane term in human terms the natural terms of humanity for artistry except for those. Brief exception to recent -- change. It was simply using what you have which was he didn't have a plowing didn't have an animal didn't have a fishing boat or met. Using what he had to feed him and his family. And -- policeman -- police soldiers of course have heavier weapons -- policeman that rifles automatic rifles these days. And so today expect what they can. By setting up checkpoints that's on the one thing -- an African soldier will not do. Is to fight to defend this country to do the function of the soldier they will never fight to defend the country you know African countries that I had. It being protected from invasion aggression from anybody. By its army businesses -- phenomena and the purpose of being at a soldier is to extract money. From whoever you can however you can sometimes. It's sophisticated the political administrative wise as we. -- recently in some countries in other times simply by UN your comrades setting up a checkpoint. Anybody comes along with -- wales' drug money you stopping you take the money from the the -- you'll have opposed to the teacher teachers don't have guns but what -- do is they get the salary a salad and they don't teach you can go into a classroom and his -- in Canada in front of the children sitting there -- sleeping because he's had the long night maybe he has two jobs maybe it was -- profound. But whatever it is too big to teach ship. West to become a teacher you have acquired the ownership of a stream of teacher pay. And that is yours who have been to use and distribute and according to the prevailing morality which is families them. And did the doctor did doctor was supposed to give your vaccination for free charges euphoric and he. He's not going to waste his time you know ensuring that the the syringe is. Is properly in is that not good to. That's so that you might. Pay for it and also get aids in the bargain when you're trying to get back to this is inevitable process of having state structures. Without having the ideology that -- state structures functional. So if you look at his start doing numbers and things. And they're realizing what happens then that you use you set yourself but perhaps this was the greatest crime of colonialism. It was that when they left it didn't take the state put them they'd been demolished the state didn't his armed soldiers abolish the police. And say sorry we came within -- bring him back the way boss like moving into an apartment that isn't yours and then messing it up. And leaving incomprehensible machines in all the rooms that can't be disconnected making it sort of even hard to leave it that we have eight. They just think Saddam and about a is that. -- is the usual presence of governments of states taking -- my name and spending gets somewhere else. And in this case pending a very far away said that you cannot see what happens and Ed comes in different -- to raise the best. Kind of made -- the money gets stalled limits source. Because for example be done is used to have an additional program Somalia. Where the teachers the Italian pizzas and sent to Somalia we're getting paid the one year's salary each month. There are getting twelve down the salaries they became a racket run by the socialist party of Italy fewer at the teacher and the socialist who could make a lot of money. By going to prepare and to teach and some -- that this is stealing a source why -- say it's better because a lot of the edge projects. Have been disastrously destructive of wealth the class there'd -- this many of them have been the subject of beat till -- McGrath is statistical studies. Some of them long term studies and the the egregious cases are really quite phenomenal. Such as the cases where you go into. Every bit green -- to question -- in French West Africa where there was a harmonious harmonious interchange between. Fishermen on the river. Pastoral people who came to graze the animals after the harvest so that you have farmers fishermen. And pastoral people using the same river valley and prospering with it. By the time -- project -- finished with this little bit of -- little -- middle capitalization and they did they bring in the rice rice there what happened is no fisherman know farmers know that services that you have. And rice cultivation the belongs to some politician in down. And after a few years he gets abandoned so. The -- put money that is stall and a source. By giving given too expensive consultants back in the in Washington DC -- or Oslo or it simply diverted by you know by the sound that it does less harm. -- projects which have gone way I myself. And gratuitously descent of the project which was introducing some. Wonderfully improved seeds in the particular situation in Africa that was connected to for my family. And if these people had used those wonderfully groups say is they would all have died of hunger. Because the seats were indeed very productive but nobody checked against the Mehmet those in the sought to -- always. That what is interesting about these great project is the unwillingness to audit them. In Norway a couple years ago so people made an attempt to have an -- doubled in the region -- programs. Because -- of the agency number unspectacular things like turning trying to get the -- Mario passed through at least in the east and Kenya to become the lake Victoria fishermen and built the frozen. Fish plant near the result is no fish no frozen no fishing though pastoral no nothing except a group of -- lawyers who have been turned into amended its. They attempt was made to start them on dates just of the Norwegian aid project and to see what they have dropped. And the outcome of that was a gigantic scandal because what happened was that to people proposing the aid project aware immediately attacked its fascist Nazis a racist. Racial instance on the funny thing is that -- of course were the only nerve agents who has been real time in Africa. Who have real connections and commitments and like the place and so. And the people who were aghast that the people fool of me wants to remain an extraction. So what we have here. Is a lot of failed projects some have been successful incidentally because that generate that expertise but must have photo. But they -- real. Macro effect is much more important than the microbes in the macro effect has been in direct indirect ways. To sustain the Africans -- which is to allow the African state to continue instead of undergoing a natural evolution which is disintegration disappearance of the state. Which would then make it possible for the emergence of organic African political entities. We have cases -- if you travel in Congo. Two I went along with some people who interest in the some weird animals you're traveling -- go beyond what the state has completely disappeared because as you all down the river navigation. Has -- in very restricted the roads no longer I've been overgrown. And all that they go beyond the state what you find -- not as savage place where people are chasing people to eat them. What you'll find is the only villages in the Congo which -- function it. But of people living quietly and productively and where you don't need to with three machine guns to protect itself. Where there -- no policemen and those soldiers and so on so watch the aid is most culpable ball is dead. Not through the -- for ideas but the total effect used to sustain the state because the states. Back in from that states support the no leads. Benefit from that they are legitimized by it. And so on said the actual if anybody cared about Africa what they really would want to do. Is to do the very opposite do everything possible to bring about the disappearance of the state. Not only -- because it is Paris typical. And exploitative but because it blocks the emergence. Of the organic entities which are waiting to -- Which have rise from that moral economy -- telling about the moral economy which allows and Ian -- To be the head of the white supremacist government -- Asia. And upon being defeated to simply go back his farm and live in tranquility and amity and security. So there is tomorrow economy that was suspended and that is what will be released thank you."

" can I say we if we call this forum a radical solution -- on development and as I like to say to my colleagues if you can't say that Kate so there is nowhere else where you can spit it."

" I have really do it in our next speaker. It's on my favorite Africanist George a tent. -- dot net and don't tell you today is a native of Ghana. He's a distinguished economist at American university and president of the free Africa foundation both in Washington DC. He obtain bachelor's in economics at the university of Ghana master's in economics of the university west and -- aunt Harriet and he's speech Steve from investing Manitoba and Canada. He was nominated for the Africa prize for leadership by the times of London newspaper. And was a national fellow at the Hoover institution at Stanford University as well as the bread and Bradley scholar at the Heritage Foundation. He's an authority on Africa who has written several books about the continent including Africa betrayed. Which one BHL Mencken award for the best book in 1992. And his latest of course is the claimant Africa and change he's a frequent contributor. To the Wall Street Journal and the Los Angeles Times and he's a friend and am really pleased to welcome you once again to the Cato Institute."

" I'm first of full let me I Decatur instituted an awesome Marion. For putting together this conference. And I must say that the topic is very provocative. And it topic like this is needed because. We made in my view the complete menu we're thinking about Africa. But before I say anything leg to -- there is -- way. Of -- Kenyan police. When they're caught speeding. A size so -- again entities. What's beating. And when I got out of the trying to say Sarah you're doing fudge in my as a nine as a demise on. Now says no I was 355. And so sorry sorry I'm sorry you know you can group. This topic about Litton African collapse and -- and an African governments fail. I say it is very seductive and very very appealing. And those split things along those lazy time to name them. I mean look at since independence. Wes is pumped more than 450 billion in aid to Africa."

" What -- to show for it."

" And yeah it is extremely difficult. I give it a case of more aid. Now if you look mean. Take some idea for example. So -- back in 1991 used to be called. -- agreed yacht off -- All that aid which was put into somebody else. Smart enough to -- back country. And then in 89 to wander into nicer community mounted. Operation rescue went somatic collapse operation rescue repressive Somalia. And -- human experiments and cause international community three point five billion dollars and of course when you when you hear -- international community means read the United States. I've -- in Somalia. International community was very leery of that itself involved. -- on -- who were on the blew up in the United Nations and don't want to get involved. Now you. That time that's come. For the collapse of the east African countries and governments to be reassessed. Now if we say about what I'm going to help. Trillion African governments for example. One of the things which we must realize is that. This particular policy I called this particular policy and it wise and pound foolish. Pena wise and pound -- is because. When you have a trillion African governments and we don't do anything to save them. Okay let's assume that a collapse. Now under collapsed. Of the country creates -- CT just I'm like in destruction eccentrics -- I'd -- destruction and chaos and anarchy it's important barometer is not confined to adapt to what country alone. Refugees stream across borders. And -- place strings. On Avery and -- services of neighboring countries. As and it's a perfect example way it's been a home or fly to many many millions and thousands of refugees and to. Mountain Zimbabwe is also another classic example. -- turmoil in Zimbabwe. Has driven investors out of the sudden African region as modified the turmoil. Has cost more than 55 billion dollars in economic damage. It economies of the surrounding countries. And also Linda Lewis of the South Africa run. And he imitating a shivering in the turmoil in Zimbabwe. Mountain when you have the chaos and -- like it's been into an African countries and and I remember this it is exactly the same international community -- Which will be caught up on. Help the refugee problems in neighboring countries so it awaits them. That -- African government we do nothing to us how it's really an African government. And it government collapses and then we had to say in international community. Which asked coming to cut to pieces. Another example is -- rule. -- nine for example. Now we how dear canyon you're sending troops. -- And a plate we don't want to emphasizes that a friend to believe and there's principal. Prevention is better than Q. So how do we prevent these countries so these government. From trading and a restless. That's what in my view that's way to focus should be. And don't get me wrong. Tried to prevent these countries want this government from collapse and doesn't mean that we -- and aid money to them as they have been doing before. Because we know that a thousand times of the money that the gave me. That I help. What happened. Is that. The money is that we gave to them as I've heard the Afghan leaders. -- guided him managed to give yet people file more aid going to get from noise. Our offense which is remember is that. African Union. Back in 2005. Determined that corruption along. Plus Africa 148 billion dollars a year. Corruption along 128 billion going to see you. Now compare that to the foreign aid -- reasons for most schools. Foreign adversaries and I'm also since it's 25 billion. Now which means that -- aid resources out -- desperately needs time to find enough potato. Africa really doesn't need it you'd. But I mean. And discount is just -- and this pound for example it is extremely difficult. To make -- as well as aid to Africa extremely difficult now believe me put upon us and -- induced them to platoon got us nowhere look the Bush Administration has quadrupled aid to Africa. So Nomar -- noble into -- sounds like a broken record. Second and it is -- Wetteland often accused of being stingy. Not wanting to help Africa. So demanded that we have. We need you paradigm. How do we. Save prevent African governments from collapsing. Without following the same old failed eight. Now what I'll suggest is that. And in constant let go through like June is when I close my he'd. -- not deed. Is that which and -- always the African people. A prison -- want to prevent and -- and its government. From collapsing. -- three things that we need to do in Africa. It's -- reform reform. Reform what type of reform do we need. We -- political reform. We need economic reform. And we also need intellectual reform. And ammunition -- interest it. Here it. See you tell them. To cut government spending. It was set up at ministerial -- government. Then on interest it. So the old paradigm. What's went to west -- gave these governments. And millions of aid money to encourage them to reform they didn't. It -- and ended their lending -- be one step forward three steps back. Now why that tells us is that look you vote -- want to reform the city's African governments from collapsing. She's not looking the government was relishing lieutenant that was the idea and say. And pursue a society to do its job that's not affect so -- Indeed is that we am always the African people to instigate reformed from within. And a lot of for the and to do so and in fact critical executions. They need to have a independent media independent media doesn't and his estimate happened. Yeah of Zimbabwe for example. Also need an independent central bank. The -- months under the deal with an African country which does not as central bar prints out. Also need. An independent judiciary for the -- role. And -- neutral and professional armed forces. As well as an efficient civil service and an independent. Electric -- If you gave -- these six critical institutions themselves. -- tossed out of government -- and so through phone. When in Africa we -- umpires -- Thank you very much."

" Thank you so much George thank you. -- de Lorenzo our next speaker is Everest in Palo foreign and defense policy at the American enterprise institute in Washington DC. Is -- such focuses on strategic aspects of foreign aid and ownership and business climate of foam in developing countries and he's preparing as we speak a -- Graf. All on the comparing for developing countries that are making it easier to do business and the lessons. They offer for US development policy. In 2005 he worked with a -- construction company seemed cobble. And pride to veterans such he was there's such associate and prior to that he was of such associated both the American investing Kyra and -- institute a socialist searching Kampala Uganda. In 2002 leaders searched and no associate producer of the price of eight a BBC documentary about food aid and misdiagnosis of famine in Africa. He studied linguistics and -- signs at the University of Delaware and development studies and social anthropology at the university of books that. Where he was a -- scope -- He's been conducting -- such in Uganda Congo Rwanda Burundi and Tanzania since 1998. Since 2007 he's been a member of the band has foundation and the presidential. Foundations presidential advisory teams for Rwanda and Liberia and he also serves on the board of directors of the Millennium Challenge Corporation. Please help me welcome -- the Lawrence up."

" Thank you very much an issue an immediate correction I don't serve on the board of directors of the NTC -- The assistant to somebody who does senator Bill Frist on this note taker -- the -- members -- a -- jumbled thoughts really in response to what I'm Edward approximate and and George -- take. The first is that the idea of letting African states collapses. Obviously preposterous to me for different from practical perspective and and a number of ways you want to think about it and perhaps even some. Moral issues as well but it's preposterous in ways which I think are very clarifying an important and interest from first to clarify is that we apparently still think that. We are the ones somehow saving the state from collapsing that it's within our power to do so. Suggest that there's a real choice to be made right that that when we're faced with it descend upon with the disintegrating state that we would in fact act that. If we decide attacks we would have any idea what to do and that their remedies we were trying to plywood matter. I'm the fact of what we. Do and what we talk about doing ourselves as what's most visible and and and apparent to -- doesn't necessarily mean that's the most important thing. There's this tendency and and all of those are assumptions I think fat -- can be questioned I could talk at length about the DRC right spend a number of years. But we'll find some time for some for for some except for some examples but and we want to hunt for discussion. But the tendency. That what this expresses is that there's a tendency we also -- what to keep ourselves at the center of the picture at the center of the debate that's about us what we do -- don't do it's about our institutions our government's and Africa as a sort of African people and organizations and political movements as historical actors in their own. Our destiny is minimized them and reduced in the process of thin metal returned to a second bomb its import we shouldn't overestimate our influence -- importance in Africa it's what we do what the UN does Israeli particularly decisive looked up from the ground. Com but it's also becoming I think because of new communications technologies the -- harder and harder to maintain this monopoly on the production of knowledge and opinion about Africa it's much easier than it ever was before to be well informed about what's going on by looking at voice as what you don't come out of the same sort of DC or New York -- London based complex of analysis what is often. Usually written by westerners anyway the real question in my view that we should be asking is not whether we somehow allow or earth acts to prevents states from collapsing. Com but whether it damages Africa's long term prospects that. The international system no longer allows weak state to be absorbed by stronger states in fact whether you know. Whether there can be reconfiguration in the African political space they take account of how realities have changed since the 1885 or since 1960 that's not the situation we have. You have and do you have a disk continuity between the historical pattern of state formation and Africa which is that the boundaries state. Are the extent of the extent to which the the center can project its power. Those realities are many cases frozen in 1985 you have for example Sudan which is. In its shape is simply. With that that the extent that that time of slave raiding caravans from -- In all directions and then that was frozen and that became sit down with all of its peoples involved similarly states which are natural and some sense micro Wanda which are an actual existing policy that was there before. It's frozen in time that act as it looked when the when that country was fixed in 1910 was accidentally or some -- standards those sorts of alterations three configurations are no longer possible. If you look back at the history European state formation that's a long story of small weak units being absorbed into a stronger and stronger ones over time -- Sort of history that sort of state development is now no longer available to Africa not to me is I think. Discussing whether. There's there's things that can be done in terms of international relations to loosen some of those strictures or whether African institutions or interest in Denver visiting some of the rules that they issued when -- he was formed there's there's one way of framing and we can talk about specific cases but also returns to dismiss which is brought up again and again that Africa's problem is that the borders are somehow artificial. Right that you have these are boards that were drawn by Europeans and Germans in Berlin NET 85 and that Africa's problems of the lines go crisscross all over the place and make no sense so. It's as if like for example the borders and European states are rational normal as a state they -- demarcation naturally occurring polity is that belong together throughout history it it it obscures the fact which is surprising to a lot of people but the fact of living together in an arbitrarily contains space for a long period of time can in fact create a national consciousness. Com that's the story of Eritrea Eritrea. Has no. Unity and has no existence in history except for the fact that it lived separately as. Administered by Italy for several decades and that was apparently strong enough to cause them to fight for several decades of very brutal war for their own independent. The boundaries may be artificial. It at some point in the past but their real today and they can express a shared history and Tom and shared consciousness and for that reason. Just to point out that they were artificial and they -- made this actually now revealing now this reconfiguration whether we're talking in the memo to state collapsed or in terms of -- absorbing the strong can obviously be. Violent but what's important to analyzes not. Whether it's violent or not oh that's from many other recent support but it's to understand what the warring parties were present. Com today represent some the nexus of local interest or they simply bandits in some sense I think. The best way to get a sense of that has to look at how to fund and are they funded external you are they funded by natural resources -- Or they funded and some sense locally representing some kind of national aspiration and if you look at the trajectory of different African liberation movements the ones that have. I've been successful not only in taking power but in transforming themselves into successful governments. Tom you fight it's the ones that. Where some since funded themselves the RPF in Rwanda was funded by any external power. Do what they got from Uganda was relatively limited it was funded by an extensive covert network of fund raising run by themselves one by few people who fund that the movement Uganda got to look beaten you seven in Uganda. Got a little bit from Libya and 1983 or something but for the most part he lived off of -- that affects. How the movement treat the people. In the in the territory it controls if you would depend for revenue on the people who you're organizing -- much were elected to treat them well and if you're getting money from the United States -- the Soviet Union or from the sale of diamonds and gold. If you look for example now West Africa and movements which emerged sincerely on Liberia there's an external elements would be under -- a fossil sort of fomenting the -- them destabilizing each other but basically they. Had little connection to any political idea -- ideal. Or to the people they were controlling because they were they their their revenues of survival can depend on their relations with the people. So I also think transition to this question of aid I think it's important to separate these questions of the aid question and its effects on government governance in Africa from the question of state collapsing publish them approach it -- feel about it or even talk about it than diagnose it the states. In some sense are with the grasped the genealogy of them. They weren't yes it's true that you know. Europeans left in 1960 and left behind statesman a -- preferred to. You know whether the moral preconditions for the success of the states of their but the fact that those states are not -- that's successful on the terms of modern European states with a bit aside if the point of the first ask what those states were designed to do what they were invented four and noticed the continuity between the structure of the colonial states and what you find now in terms of predatory nature they were -- all designed to solve certain problems. And institutions were made to solve them you know to suppress native unrest since you have garrisons around large towns that they could quickly surround them you have certain productive things mayans or something in the periphery need to get them out says it will port or something and so the whole state is designed to extract revenues so that at our burden on the on the central government and to. Not have people participate in politics but to prevent them from participating in politics to keep them quiet and working and productive so that you can -- Asked cream off for example the agricultural. -- surplus and -- have. Economic structures created to do just that so that. You don't have to get a subsidy off to get extra you know the bottom of the ministry of colonial fares to send you more money that's the motivations of colonial officials who want to keep your staffs now. -- very very little time. The -- question since it came up a lot. It it I think it's impossible really to talk about it anymore unless you. Dis aggregate the purposes for which the money is get at this point out that some. Some outrageous number that was given the man nothing has happened is is misleading because it was given for different purposes and different places. And that the and the danger in my view and the way it age can cause damage. Is by separating the executive branches of governments from the people that their ruling -- one of the reasons I think the performance of many African democracies has been very unsatisfactory. Democracies in normal countries are about raising tax revenue and bargaining and deciding how to spend. In Africa tax effort tends to be very low executives can executive branches can get funds directly from donors through through aid programs. And they bargain with them about what the money should be spent four and parliaments and people don't have much to say about it and as a result the parliament's tend not to have much power and can't serve as a check. That is the structural damage to democracy that -- can cost. Whatever it's intended for whatever the purposes and whether it's effective for not. So few and simply going and auditing whether the aid is effective or not on its narrow terms and can fix that problem can be a little better at getting health clinics in place. But it's still going to have this. Damaging effect on. On the quality of democracy and incidentally also on a government incentive to improve its business environment because if you don't need to raise taxes to have written the function. What do you care whether -- companies can sort consumed by it. So the final I guess and to wrap up. It's not really in our power to either. Build the institutions which are going to make. African states strong nor is it in our power to cause them to collapse or prevent them from collapsing if they're going to do it. Now we don't have we don't know how to do we don't have the political will or the money doing. Com and we should instead recognize that. Africa has always had a history of its own in the course of events in Africa. In almost all cases have been determined by what African groups organ organize an acting together do. What they're there. In the past as liberation movements as governments now has economic -- The fact that that's usually invisible to us because we're obsessed with our own place and Africa and what we do doesn't mean that that's not the essential. Underlying reality and we can either. Trying grasped that veteran join narrow -- own efforts to that in brief brief visit and rethink how we. Give -- so that it doesn't damage be modest about how much help a -- but it's at least not cost the sorts of political damage that. Problems that I just mentioned -- a lot of other things to say it will stop that thank you. --"

" Thank you for those comments -- there will be more time for -- tomatoes so make additional points during the Q&A but before we move on to Q and -- idea -- Ed do want to take a minute to to reflect well listen so disturbance does."

" until we emphasize that my contention is that families them. Is not evil but organic natural. Constituent of African life -- which in the course of time they can emerge African solutions. Tribalism is also decide asked of the claim that you know we have nothing to do it there's a -- this that when these states implode carpet while Kenya and -- on. The haul international community guns in dared to patch it up and rebuild it instead of allowing the natural organic forces to emerge. So on the one hand that held that we're powerless and we just spectators and we have illusions and delusions of of power and control but on the other I see that would never. They -- of the slide and that is the intervention and then that is the even -- pieces of the dead body of the state kept alive sometimes. As with the ngos in Somalia. They used to go in and pay for a security for the ngos to distribute the food in the full light to the TV cameras. That by feeding the warlords in the gangsters that what the remnants. Of this -- mistake that we have. Much is if we don't run the show but I'll roll has been important enough to be home. Thank you."

" Will open it -- to Christian -- would you please wait Amir shook up and first and then wait until microphone reaches you and if you could please. Say -- our. And formed a question and form a question."

" Yes right in front. Here in front."

" Probably."

" A writer but I primarily right about urban. Development issues economic development and architecture in -- and think here's so. I'm very. Ignorant about the politics of Africa even on quote and quote an African American I know nothing about Africa itself but I would like to ask a basic question. To anyone who couldn't -- with like two approaches is it possible to quote unquote solved the problems of Africa by centralizing. The countries in the way that may be the European union's attempt to do to produce one type of currency. And to try to diminish that the device -- between the different tribes different cultures and so on this is is there any way to to simplify. That the tragedies of the various countries can."

" If -- me. If I'm ancillary question. And there's a full. I'm assuming memories is centralizing -- talking a book centralization of decision making within the same country. Not a what happens -- suddenly there's hundreds of and."

" I agree with Ed that the state structure that was left by crew members. Ways peaceful sit in particular purposes which may not necessarily be bad in the interest of Africans. If you pick a country for some reason on him as a country alone three man lines. Press one is a unitary system of government -- the European model that's what is published in Africa. None of the unitary system all of decisions and power. We're concentrated at a top associated. It's like in all decisions in Britain notices that they you know London and Irish slowed decisions I have friends or decisions that they can inquiries. Backed model was not suitable for Africa. Who was not suitable for -- because it was a crisis of African country's multi ethnic. So when you centralized -- you always give an incentive to one particular group ethnic group to two hijacked that power and use that power. But -- interest and exclude everybody else says it. On something like a political and economic you've seen that committed in many countries in Africa and so match unitary system woke up and was dead wrong not suitable for Africa. The second type. Of buy governance is that federal system like the US for example you have decentralize power and not defense is sentenced in federal. You're not backed -- federal system even requires -- and devolution of authority and power. Not get -- that the federal system west Africa's -- indigenous system of government. Mali empire was -- in great confederacy song guy with the confederation. Great Zimbabwe it was a confederacy the problem that mistake that we made. What's that after independence we never went back to build upon Aachen Federalist system of government. That it won an equivalent is Switzerland Switzerland -- a confederation of fifteen time tones. Okay so windy it's a house sometime affair rethinking. All this is some of government which is suitable for us. Not what -- Europeans that behind. European centralize this isn't so that's always an incentive for eventual -- some ethnic group to touch of a power. And was attacked about power you know to practice what we call -- a politics of exclusion. And politics of -- solution has been to -- about this development you'll notice every time there's a civil war tension -- It is always always started. By duels politically my demand nice voice to a big groups so we had a solution a solution. If it's ever intended to practice the politics of inclusion. That's not a tall order -- blacks and whites in South Africa to get around to genocide mysticism which they can share power. We ended this may mean Zimbabwe. Within reason mean Saddam opened incentive an African countries and you know."

" Right here in front."

" On this Merrill Smith with the US committee for refugees and immigrants doctor you do you mentioned the problems of refugees several times quite eloquently. One of the problems that we have been addressing this so called problem of where housing refugees keeping them in camps without the right to work -- freedom of movement. Not only is this a violation of their right to work in freedom of movement under the -- 51 convention. It also has exacerbated conflict has been a breeding ground for well written our our facilities for troops and so forth. As you point that out and do in your book too as well. But I want to know if you or any other panelists have any idea of a solution for this obviously these refugee camps -- sustained by foreign aid usually and humanitarian -- Should be cut it off altogether just stop -- is there a smart aid alternative. Is there some way perhaps aiding and civil society institutions in those countries to do refugee protection rather than having international agencies drop in. But with parachutes whatnot. And if you want to you can."

" Well is pretty obvious that give in European history we have the current refugee institutions the UN institutions and the ngos. Then Europe today it would be filled with giant camps for so leftover visit guards. -- defeated us regards this this inherited Romans. Forever after -- maintaining their identities and resentments in the state the perfect frankness. So you would go dead and there was still want to go back to whatever piece of geological history there have been a month so the answer is that it there should be understood. That there is feeding overnight and resettlement tomorrow if that's not possible. Don't go because otherwise you're creating they horrible situations in question in Rwanda in the in the Congo is Congo Rwanda suppression that. That was the exemplary worst case but they're all bad cases -- if you country sample don't do it it's in the long run is more cruel to interfere stupid. You know do no harm."

" More you think something I was going to but it got very quick I didn't. I think refugees band as a tool for dealing with refugee problems not can be suppressed immunity if you -- I think there are ways to support and help them refugees but by dispersing them throughout states. And working with Local Governments which of the units that tend to disperse the kinds of services that refugees consumed -- away with the benefits everybody who lives in that particular zone that. Neutralizes and sometimes the security risk and hopefully facilitate local integration and and over time but there's also governments that have taken matters into their own hands against advice of the UN not a -- woman government which dismantled a refugee council on its own because it realized the UN was never going to do it. And that attack them and that everyone went home except for some others and a lot of people died in the right way to analyze that morally -- to ask does. -- was saying whether. The cost of doing that -- greater than the cost of doing nothing often and humanitarian analysis and human rights analysis. We have we've we analyze the costs of action and tee them up and criticize people when those costs are paid but no one ever analyzes -- calculates the cost of doing nothing and refugee camps are limited to implement."

" Over -- yeah I just want to in a point of clarification and -- reviews -- three types of a -- aligned various economic development assistance is as a normal foreign aid. And and as humanitarian aid and and various our military be. Now there will always be guarded in my through humanitarian assistance and I think well we have Kosovo aid were failing specifically. Economic development assistance not to humanitarian purposes."

" And maybe should start calling government to government trans this that's going may. Change -- mean maybe we should be talking about that but that's not what people talk about when they talk about the need to pay. And there's actually very little so so called economic development assistance that we get to Africa or anywhere else almost all of what we give us our large scale health programs especially as you mentioned. And the money that's been quadrupled in the Bush Administration. And the reason -- like health programs is that they tend to work much better than other kinds of aid programs one reasons that you couldn't avoid the state but also because they have incredible political support domestically and there's almost unlimited amounts of money that can be used for that but. We should not we should stop being surprised when them money we spend on for example health related aid programs fail to cause economic growth. What they're supposed to do. And so it's it's disingenuous to keep arguing to take the number from those and say well but you know the economy contracted. 'cause it's called a doesn't mean it's going to contribute to group. I'm going to try to get Christian from -- so in the back there."

" Thank you very much ask how just so. Two questions and then a comment maybe I should stop -- could you dispense with the comment I don't mean to Beirut but we need to move on because other people of questions as well thank you okay. I just -- is that. The I'm from Africa and from -- Africa but my. My a what I've seen he's the money we you have been injecting in Africa since the 1960s is no going anywhere. 148 billion the case thing is going into corruption after year. So we've got to come up -- in the way all of helping Africa now. I premium to the best way to Africa Africa and now he's. To make sure that the institutions respected meaning knew that it has some type of transplant to end when I -- unanswered. So do how -- do suggests any way of a new way of doing this thing. Meaning we can't -- this money go -- do you know find new ways this is the first question second question he's you can keep going to need. What can you have to in Africa but I don't think. I'm scared because I don't think is going anywhere because. My case saying coolest thing we have to show but under his leg case that he's going to say the Columbia and sending out and -- Those very -- nations and as low as the economy of business and these very smaller. The money you go down there couldn't there are clearly -- go down the money would be bidding could Tuesday move over your question and cook those nation we go. Long -- mall the mall -- And anything that might. You have to think about community united didn't nation in making it the one nation. America -- Gambia and Senegal and business and kind of stunt. Thinking putting day -- to because that he noted to come up is a better country."

" Thank you very much there was so another question the back -- to show we get this all."

" I'm an English during the alum trade investment officer for the government -- mission rushed in DC. I'm going back to the topic of -- African governments failed and we equally say. Let problematic situations happening in the world continued to existence failed searches. Disengaging from the Palestinian Israeli conflict not sending agent Jordan not sending aid to Egypt. My question is in the context of Sudan since I'm from southern Sudan hypothetically even though the topic actually is contrary to reality because who gives who has the power of the authority. To -- who fail or succeed. So common that the question -- Dan we have these sensors in the April 2008 we have general election 20092011 we have referendum. The sudden -- Denise can vote to become an independent nation state or remain as one country so in -- hypothetical sending. Led to African governments fail if the international community disengage from Sudan. What is going to be the situation in Sudan okay as we heard about never again in Rwanda not -- An old Lisa raises awareness he would almighty god it happen again so what's gonna happen it would disengagement thank you."

" I'm all the subsequent guns and -- the short answer -- if you wait around waiting for the United States or any external power to come and fix -- they're going to wait a long time. The answer yeah. Successful states in the successful movements and Africa are the ones that. Ignore the international institutions to some extent decide on their own vision and organize themselves and does get a -- and do it. And that's the story of the rebel movements which are now successful governments. Com and it's that story of actually many successful governments that were never rebel movements the best things in your hands stop. Won't stop looking around for the so called international community to have an idea about this -- about the issue. On sending Gambino that's a great example because Gambia is a perfect example of a country which isn't a rational world shouldn't exist it -- little strip along the river why is that there was a long. Colonial history about why but it. They actually did try there was something called senate Gambia which existed for a few years and collapsed. And so before we start recommending randomly Amal demeaning African states are having a big union and doing it centrally and it in effect. Making the same kinds of X extremely imposed mistakes that were made by a conference of Berlin in 1985 which are going to cause. Other political problems which you can even for see now why don't we look at for example this and again their case and understand why it didn't work. Because there are real reasons why you need to the case hasn't finally on the question of corruption and -- again when we just restate. That problem where posing is a political problem and are no technical solutions to political problem. The problem the reason money is wasted and not spend well and so forth and hasn't had a fact is because it's it's given outside of any political system which can surveyor in terms of the media or parliament and so forth and there's no. Audit our special thing that experts consider woman do to make it work properly it's a political problem and technical solutions to."

" I think Israeli not to useful. Especially here we -- Cato Institute to deplored the fact that aid money is wasted when he's wasted it does less harm. In fact a lot of them harm is being done from. You know sort of reckless ngos have done tremendous harm. The display gov ngos which means non government organizations means non responsible organization that nobody supervises. Well meaning enthusiasm. Is -- a persuade people to give the money in the dog do armor on the -- none of this bothers me. But it doesn't bother me methodology Cleveland people talk about corruption. As you say if this day is a functioning productive entity. Corruption is an evil thing and the Anglo saxons love to go around saying -- your core rap musical -- the other guys around. But when the state is harmful. Corruption can be positive. Visualize for example the man in charge of buying. Weapons for a West African state he steals the money instead of buying rifles and means there -- fewer soldiers are running around. Pointing guns at civilians and extorting money from that it begs the money he'd sit and feed his family. Then why the feminism in this case is a positive force let's not use this permit this kind of terms like corruption has transformed but again I protests at the idea out. That we have nothing to do with that it was mentioned that correctly by the bye bye amount that the state of Saddam. Was actually the range of slave -- from Khartoum from the Nile river. And then as he was Europeans have been made the band to be around this absurdity. And create this event since that then. There was a process whereby the British they the British used to have these so -- Sudan's serve as Saddam was so exulted in the British side. That is -- service was the most prestigious. Branch of the entire. British foreign foreign and colonial service to your and they would only take Oxford -- blues have for example. To -- Saddam and the administration is so great of course that this abortion then grew Amber's been paying them -- forest and handed over. And since that time so that has been a beneficiary of ngos. And multinational efforts the Arab League. Has sustained the state of Saddam the Arab League protects -- in international forum but that's Fred a lot of money and it. In his humanitarian mode Osama bin Laden and invested -- of that. I show he lost his money entry in the Sudan scheme you know. And so everybody has come from outside to sustain sit -- just so that could be government the genocide -- Abortion and it is genocide -- regard to the south and before but Justin realized the -- to day workings. Without to -- mile without war without violence without islam's slavery and held out. Bennett today imports Sudan where the Sudanese state does is to extort money from fishermen and and he did the fishing. Extort money from -- impede them or did. And the ruining what is the fact that wonderful prize that everybody must go to because it as the world's best coral and fish by the way."

" And the -- a couple of points I wish it was moral corruption is Saddam bottom line."

" Let me at a temple up up points one the christmas was as a way to. -- this thing gauge from from Sudan and the it's very very easy to say that you can look at erected -- ways and hope for Africa the -- she -- out of flies have done back then we'll be making a mistake we're making everything because -- part of the problem is. You have very naive -- who have absolutely no mean. How to really help Africa and quite often gave them social problems looked. You don't have to reinvent that we. The tank that's -- don't waste dealt with a former Soviet Union. There was sitting go to diploma Soviet Union at hand aid money but what the Communist regimes on promises tougher foam the west did not do that. So why's -- why isn't the same thing in Africa. Where the west is give him money to do is corrupt and incompetent African government on promises of reform UN and I know that Dan Uggla to reform bill supplement -- instance. So in other ways you know take a look at Hardaway is though with Poland for example the resident give aid money. To the Communist regimes it crop. Groups like solidarity. So why isn't a west -- solidarity groups in Africa. -- the wisdom which again obviously solidarity groups Assad indicated market we're not saying -- disengage completely. But you have to think Motley. Of a welfare empowering civil society -- will compile an opera does sort of -- themselves and instigate reform. And that's why live out of six critical institutions that Africans neat. Nice about the west is coming to Africa to easily get perform Africans themselves -- sort empower them to corruption for example. In allowed to fight corruption you need to key institutions won an independent media. Right now in Africa we have an independent media and 18 African countries. This second is an independent judiciary -- poised to Rudolph role. What can talk all we want. About corruption and crime and corruption but so long as those independent institution is that not the forget it hum."

" In NA NA of very selfish and individualistic way will be used my -- started to last us question outlaws the older -- oh the -- almost because today to respond and just very briefly to two questions one. Is both smart not a success story and to. These books one a success story if you thing it is a success story. In large bought a result of them in bracing pre colonial tribal institutions from before the led to the British."

" Take over. What's --"

" But it insists that. We'll I from my African relatives I learned that magic and witchcraft a much misunderstood in the west. And in the name of this approach to life I will refrain from using. The name mentioning the name of the country that you spoke about. This country the begins would be and the reason I do that. Is this is classic magic procedure is the cause for years. Whenever you talk about these things that would -- you are but look at called -- why are so wonderful success story. And Kenya a wonderful success stories I would refrained from mentioning the name. Of this country aren't. And."

" I would consider it a success. The fact it's become such an emblem of success masks the number of continuing problems works Botswana themselves like to talk about -- frustrated that no one notices except that because everyone's looking for what's -- to be a success story but it unquestionably. It is in terms of its income levels in terms of the responsibility of its government its ability -- on the fundamentally -- it has a fundamentally different hate relationship for example the most African states it. First of all achieved independence significantly later. And many other African states -- it was in 1966 which partially helped insulate it from some of them. Excesses of early years of African nationalism. Botswana also face I think this is the common and you find in the number of well performing states a real security threat. From South Africa which are focuses the mind and help you -- pay attention to things that matter whether but I know I don't think it's related. Traditional so called institutions and I think it gets bandied around a lot and different. Formats and Africa's problem is that you have these artificial western things which really -- is to go back to the so called traditional institutions. So almost any traditional institution that you pick up and look at is the fact very modern and invented -- relatively recently recently and tackle tribes which people mouth and have great antiquity were created sometimes arbitrarily by district I just to settle some local political problem and it gets anchored and the people themselves think it's -- the fact at southern -- made its if you asked them the reason the -- and they have to have -- notes because that's what they've always eaten. Produced in the -- hundreds and became a status profit became something that you know high status people -- so. Botswana is successful because it's a modern state a successful modern state which is integrated into the global economy in ways which and it it and it has found a formula for managing its own domestic constituencies -- not because it did something traditional. And George."

" Yeah well I disagree with -- over and I think Botswana is successful because -- African country which went back and build upon its own indigenous institutions. I mean and -- wet markets and Africa be political analysis came that was participate to democracy in Africa to political and -- came this is what we should have done which -- back to build upon these institutions -- about it. -- running you know boxes and socialism and that sort of thing which is totally alien to Africa. And that's -- Have this particular economic atrophy in many African countries particularly much will you please join us upstairs for a lunch --"